rns.recipes

Ok, so it was too good to be true.

But who changed the thread title? It was Ken right?

We've crossed the Rubicon with LLM coding. We don't need to embrace the slop, but we need to figure out how to shape these projects. Shaming will only drive the projects from this forum and change nothing, leading to further fragmentation.

This is so tiresome. I think you would be better off donating the price of that Claude, Gemini, or GPT subscription to Mark instead. Do you really trust an LLM to output Rust code free of complex logic issues? I hope you are ready to bear the consequences when you compromise people's privacy and security, or when you disrupt the public network because of a flaw the LLM missed. This is just another black box implementation. The part of the community that hasn't lost its mind has every right to be pissed and exhausted. This nonsense keeps happening over and over again.

CarL_PetErson wrote:

But who changed the thread title? It was Ken right?

I was assuming it was Zenith

SevenFourTwo wrote:

CarL_PetErson wrote:
> But who changed the thread title? It was Ken right?

I was assuming it was Zenith

Changing the title of someone's post because you disagree with them is just straight up toxic. Isn't this supposed to be a professional and welcoming community? This will just drive more people away from the community and project.

@Professor_Boop
I share your concerns, but we see things differently. As it says on the website, Reticulum is not one network, it's a tool for building thousands of networks. Lots of people are already building real networks around the world. The technology enabling it is here and it's ready. What is lacking is more people doing it. I can't see how rushing more vibecoded implementations would help with that, we have a complete Python implementation and high-quality C++ and Go ports nearing full feature parity.

To be clear, building networks is complicated, and Reticulum doesn't dumb things down to appeal to the masses. It requires you to understand how it works because that's what it takes to build good network infrastructure. That barrier to entry is by design. It builds competence, independence, resilience and other -ence words.

https://reticulum.network/manual/zen.html#personal-infrastructure (a8d24177d946de4f1f0a0fe1af9a1338:/page/blob.mu`g=reticulum|r=reticulum|ref=HEAD|path=Zen+of+Reticulum.md|anchor=personal-infrastructure)

The existing Reticulum networks and their operators, with all their knowledge and skills, are ready for when people will need them. We do need more people building networks, but that's a people problem, not a technical problem for Claude to solve.

https://reticulum.network/manual/zen.html#the-work-is-finished (a8d24177d946de4f1f0a0fe1af9a1338:/page/blob.mu`g=reticulum|r=reticulum|ref=HEAD|path=Zen+of+Reticulum.md|anchor=the-work-is-finished)

I do however think that while it's important to keep code quality high, insulting people doesn't make for a welcoming community nor fosters cooperation. If we just constantly gatekeep people and gain a reputation that the Reticulum community is toxic, it will push people away and the project will stagnate.

Yeah. I don't think the project itself would stagnate, but you're right about the reputation.

Anonymous wrote:

Changing the title of someone's post because you disagree with them is just straight up toxic. Isn't this supposed to be a professional and welcoming community? This will just drive more people away from the community and project.

The Reticulum project doesn't have an official forum, this is an unofficial one that Zenith created for the community.

Anonymous wrote:

SevenFourTwo wrote:
> CarL_PetErson wrote:
> > But who changed the thread title? It was Ken right?
>
> I was assuming it was Zenith

Changing the title of someone's post because you disagree with them is just straight up toxic. Isn't this supposed to be a professional and welcoming community? This will just drive more people away from the community and project.

You know what else is toxic? Playing the "toxic positivity" game like most sloperators and their sympathizers do here. I have no issues with Zenith's "toxicity" whatsoever. It's well placed and has solid arguments. If that toxicity helps drive away the slop - all the more power to that "toxicity".

Notice how none of those "creators" ever address the points they are confronted with. They just get offended with toxicity. What, no one even visited the commit links Zenith posted? Doesn't the content of those links bother you, people? It's downright sinister if you bother to read it a few times.

It's probably pretty simple: most people just don't care in the slightest about the topic at hand, they are just too well-mannered to discourage someone and rain on their parade. But it doesn't work that way.

But some people like Zenith here have the guts to speak out and call bs when it looks and smells like one.
That Ken Frosty guy admitted he has a background of rust programming, yet none of his EIGHTY (80!) github repos have any rust projects. And don't get me started on that Lew guy.

We aren't going to build any "community" with a gazillion of half-baked reticulum implementations. Nor am I interested in a community where pathologic narcissist liars are running the show and a crowd of anonymous'es are cheering for them to slop-on. I will eagerly partake in a toxic community of people shooting it straight. Any day.

"Gatekeeping", "toxic", these are words that are utterly meaningless and used more like magical incantations than anything else.

Some things are meant to be gatekept.

Not everyone with a Claude Code subscription should be vibing out a Rust port of a networking stack with tons of moving parts every other month. I'm not a luddite and I am not against LLMs.

Probably 80% of your entire codebase has never been glanced over by human eyes. It's literally, mathematically impossible. See my post earlier analyzing just the sheer quantity of slop produced.

Do you want to "add value" to Reticulum? Go touch grass and build things. Build a LoRa network. HaLow is looking pretty cool these days too.

Go find people who are interested in that, talk to them (scary) and setup a network for your region. If you argument is "well the tools didn't exist to do that" - that's bullshit. There are dozens, and dozens, and dozens, and dozens of tools and firmware and targets for any type of LoRa device under the sun that exist and are a Google search away. You don't need to spend 4 weeks vibecoding a Rust port to do this.

I am so sick of hearing these words like "accessibility" and "gatekeeping" and "toxicity" which are all meaingless. The tools to build the things you want are right there.

Even the Python ref can run a full public facing Transport node on a Haiku virtualbox machine at 512 MB of memory and 1 CPU core assigned to it. It took 15 minutes to setup and a pip install of rnspure. I literally do not know what else you could want. A spare e-waste laptop could run one. And yes, Python. Ew, icky, but what is the alternative? Shit that no one knows how it works and is coded entirely through a blind process? Yeah. Great.

And this isn't even mentioning the other dozen Rust ports. Or the Go port and C++ port made by actually dedicated members of the community who have sunk their fucking time in to it for years. Not done in a 3 week Claude Code session by someone who is the archetypal Dunning-Kruger redditor combo.

@joakim
I appreciate you being thoughtful and considerate responding in a way that allows for me to consider a perspective with more nuance. Thank you.

@Zenith
Did you change the thread title? If so, why? Would you find it appropriate if someone changed your own words to interject their own opinion about something?

Professor_Boop wrote:

@Zenith
Did you change the thread title? If so, why? Would you find it appropriate if someone changed your own words to interject their own opinion about something?

After all said and proof of slop given and no meaningful response on behalf of the "author" THIS is what's you problem?! He changed the name so it responds to the TRUTH. I think he was VERY patient and took a lot of time proving a point, while the "author" did not prove anything, instead of just deleting the manchild slop excursion. I would have. Why is everyone pointing in all other directions, and not to the shitty code?!

Why is everyone pointing in all other directions, and not to the shitty code?!

Because people behaving like, using language like that, are wrong or don't have good arguments most of the time. That's just experience. And if you are opposing this kind of usage of AI in that way, you are completely failing. The discussion has already diverged from the original subjects. Others have mentioned other reasons. You just don't want to accept them.

Rudi Mentaire wrote:

> Why is everyone pointing in all other directions, and not to the shitty code?!

Because people behaving like, using language like that, are wrong or don't have good arguments most of the time. That's just experience. And if you are opposing this kind of usage of AI in that way, you are completely failing. The discussion has already diverged from the original subjects. Others have mentioned other reasons. You just don't want to accept them.

Let's break down:

1. People blunt and straightforward are wrong by definition? Get lost.
2. Don't have good arguments most of the time? What the fuck are you talking about? Zenith had all the arguments and demonstrated the total crap-iness of the slop. You have zero FACTUAL AND OBJECTIVE arguments AGAINST Zenith's position, beside his way of calling things with their proper names, something all utterly incapable people denounce as politically incorrect. Whole generations turned into whining mush...
3. That's just experience? Talk for yourself. ONLY for yourself. In my experience all incapable, lazy and self righteous people hide behind a vale of exaggerated positivity, very high, albeit totally hollow self-esteem, couch-warrior passive aggressiveness, total inability to objectively defend their position by any means, other than attacking the opponent with a bouquet of subjectiveness, etc. That's just my experience.
4. And if you are opposing this kind of usage of AI in that way, you are completely failing? WHAT WAY? What the hell are you referring to? Leaving it unattended to wank code on it's own and running it without any real understanding of what it does? Are you implying THIS IS THE FUTURE?! THIS DESTROYS THE ART OF CODING, undermines it in so many ways, this is ENSHITIFICATION at it's best! And you stand with it? I have one thing to say to you - thank GOD there are people like Mark, Zenith, Nickie, that might be edgy and blunt, but actually create meaningful, real, thought trough and valuable programs. If all coders were like you, this world would have ground to a halt looong ago. Child, go play in a sandbox. And keep your "code" in it with you. It is dangerously childish and can hurt someone.
5. The discussion has already diverged from the original subjects? Mmmmno. It has converged on the real topic - deficiencies of arrested manchild development and it's hallucinogenic excursions.
6. Others have mentioned other reasons? Hu? Reasons for what? To go ahead and create more slop? To bunch up manchildren into a compact quire of whining mass, that subjectively defends it's own meaninglessness?

You cannot cancel truths. And the truth is, there is still not a single Bigger Better Reticulum. Only shit code and shit talk. If you want to be for real, go and deep dive into the code, learn it, use it, build tools to understand for real. This is how you gain the tacit knowledge and become valuable. Not by asking AI to replace all the effort, years of dedication and true understanding with a mush of shit. I have been deep into radio electronics since 1993, 33 years now! And I still learn shit and sometimes fail. Because there is theory, there is practice, and than there is life. Laziness will not get you event trough the theory part. And rudimentary knowledge of Reticulum will not qualify you as anything, but a grateful obeserver/basic user.

Insults are the weapons of the weak.

Let me tell you something: Humans write worse code than LLMs. Yeah, that hurts, doesn’t it? By the way, are you ever going to release the source code for this forum?

You are, of course, entitled to your opinion like everybody here. But your freedom of speech does not give your opinion more weight than anyone else’s, nor does it give you a licence to insult people who disagree with you.

Remember, it is not enough to be hit or insulted to be harmed; you must believe that you are being harmed. If someone succeeds in provoking you, realise that your mind is complicit in the provocation. This is why it is essential not to respond impulsively to impressions: take a moment before reacting, and you will find it easier to maintain control.

With all due respect, and to put it plainly: we don’t really care what you think about LLMs. No offence. It clearly matters a great deal to you, then fine, good for you. Then make it a forum policy that promoting LLM-based projects is not allowed. At least that way, we can avoid having to deal with you getting angry and disrespectful every time someone comes here to show off something they have “built”, no matter how.

Even if what you are fighting for is a righteous cause (and I personally believe there are legitimate concerns here, but that is merely my opinion and beside the point) the way you are fighting for it is doing your cause no favours. Attacking and insulting people because they do not share your position does not make your argument stronger; it makes people less inclined to listen to it.

So please find another way to make your case, or simply ignore these threads. You’ll be doing everyone (spoiler: including your own cause) a favour.

Can we come back to the original topic now ?

Bravo, aetherlab, bravo. You made it look like your position is a minority position of idiots. I share your position more or less 100%, and you are attacking those that share your opinion. You make it literally impossible to agree to you. You did not even know my opinion. Doesn't matter to you anyway.

And yes, there were very good and absolutely plausible and convincing reasons given against AI use here. And then some came with their fucking capital letters and barfing and made it all look like bullshit.

Anonymous wrote:

Insults are the weapons of the weak.

Let me tell you something: Humans write worse code than LLMs. Yeah, that hurts, doesn’t it? By the way, are you ever going to release the source code for this forum?

You are, of course, entitled to your opinion like everybody here. But your freedom of speech does not give your opinion more weight than anyone else’s, nor does it give you a licence to insult people who disagree with you.

Remember, it is not enough to be hit or insulted to be harmed; you must believe that you are being harmed. If someone succeeds in provoking you, realise that your mind is complicit in the provocation. This is why it is essential not to respond impulsively to impressions: take a moment before reacting, and you will find it easier to maintain control.

With all due respect, and to put it plainly: we don’t really care what you think about LLMs. No offence. It clearly matters a great deal to you, then fine, good for you. Then make it a forum policy that promoting LLM-based projects is not allowed. At least that way, we can avoid having to deal with you getting angry and disrespectful every time someone comes here to show off something they have “built”, no matter how.

Even if what you are fighting for is a righteous cause (and I personally believe there are legitimate concerns here, but that is merely my opinion and beside the point) the way you are fighting for it is doing your cause no favours. Attacking and insulting people because they do not share your position does not make your argument stronger; it makes people less inclined to listen to it.

So please find another way to make your case, or simply ignore these threads. You’ll be doing everyone (spoiler: including your own cause) a favour.

Can we come back to the original topic now ?

"I may have let people walk all over me, fuck me over, and generally do horrible, aimless, stupid shit, but at least I wasn't mean!"

No, no dude. You are the worst type of person in this world and why it's all gone to hell.

Not one person has actually brought up any anything else besides that I'm being "Rude" and "mean" for not wanting the 11th vibecoded, horrible, dumpsterfire that is genuinely done in bad faith and instead have focused on my "mean words". I don't care.

You care more about this bizarre abstract concept of Reticulum than you do the actual thing.

Then make it a forum policy that promoting LLM-based projects is not allowed.

https://rns.recipes/forum/showcase/rules-and-requirements-for-llmai-assisted-projects

I made this post nearly 2 weeks ago. This project does not qualify under any of the criteria. That isn't some subjective quantifier I pulled out of my ass either. It is absolutely unmaintainable in it's current state. See the post I made a few pages back. It isn't just the use of LLMs. It's the fact it is solely coded by a incestuous feedback loop of Claude Code sessions talking to eachother or something, which I guess the new buzzword for is "agentic coding".

There are one thousand five hundred tracked .rs files totalling 14 million characters all generated by a machine. You could fit War and Peace in there 4 and a half times.

I guarantee you there are parts of this project that a human has never even looked at.

But you don't care though. It was never really about that in the first place.

Cannot blame me for getting you backwards Rudi, can you? It is very fine in the balance, if you look at your reply! Is it a response or a proponse? So I thought, as this conversation has gone up to now, this was your opinion. I really haven't seen you stand much behind mine anyway, not up to now. So I did a mistake, I do admit I did, at least at who I pointed it. Not sure about the minority position of idiots, though. Are you? :)

@zenith: Thanks for sharing your science. You do seem to be quite the outlier here among us poor, stupid mortals. It almost looks like some kind of kink for you to belittle people simply because they don’t share your uniquely enlightened way of thinking.

The funny thing is, I firmly believe you’re right about the project itself. I actually share much of your assessment. What I don’t appreciate is the way you choose to express it and treat the people involved.

You’re a moderator of this forum. If you believe projects like this should not be showcased here, make it a clear policy (as many other open-source projects are doing) and enforce it without doing a fuss everytime (find another way to get your dopamine shot!). If a project doesn’t meet the criteria, close the thread and explain why. That would be a much more mature and constructive way of handling this than turning every such thread into an opportunity to berate people.

I don’t come to these forums to be educated about AI or told what I’m supposed to consider “good” or “bad”. The world is rarely that binary, and neither is this. It’s a spectrum. Good things may come out of a vibe-coded project; terrible things may come out of carefully hand-written code. We can discuss maintainability, code quality, provenance and reviewability on their merits without pretending that any of us possesses some infallible scientific truth about where all of this leads.

I guarantee you there are parts of this project that a human has never even looked at.

No, you don’t guarantee that. You strongly suspect it, perhaps with very good reasons, but you don’t know it. Please stop presenting things you cannot establish as facts. It undermines an otherwise perfectly legitimate technical argument.

But you don’t care though.

I actually do care. I just happen to be somewhat more inclined to let people show what they have built without immediately passing judgement on them as people.

We’re grown-ups (erm… wait!). We can look at a project, examine its code, decide whether it is useful, maintainable, trustworthy or complete rubbish, and make up our own minds. We don’t need you to protect us from it, nor do we need your particularly virulent version of “science” delivered alongside personal contempt.

Again: I think you have a point about the project, I am not 100% sure. I just wish you would make that point without treating everyone who approaches the subject differently as an idiot.

Anonymous wrote:

@zenith: Thanks for sharing your science. You do seem to be quite the outlier here among us poor, stupid mortals. It almost looks like some kind of kink for you to belittle people simply because they don’t share your uniquely enlightened way of thinking.

You are a slobbering ape.

There is another thing that bothers me about this whole discussion, and it should be my last post about it.

The use of AI to write code is not something you can reliably establish simply by looking at the end result. People on these forums may already be using AI to write bits and pieces of code without you even knowing it.

Perhaps you used AI to write the code for this forum. It still hasn’t been released, after all… are you busy making it look like a human wrote it? OK, sorry. That was inappropriate and sarcastic. But admit it: it is incredibly easy to make that kind of accusation when this is the standard of evidence we are willing to accept.

More seriously, projects you love, praise and use every day may already contain code written with the assistance of AI, without you having the slightest idea.

And that is precisely my point.

Unless there is actual evidence or disclosure, there is often a blurred line between human-written, AI-assisted and AI-generated code. Trying to determine authorship from the code itself quickly becomes speculation.

As long as that uncertainty exists, I find it largely pointless to spend so much energy arguing about who or what wrote the code.

Judge the code. Is it maintainable? Is it correct? Is it secure? Can people understand it? Can it be reviewed? Does the project have people willing and able to maintain it?

Those are questions we can actually discuss based on evidence. And frankly, I find them far more interesting than trying to guess whether Claude or any other stochastic parrot was sitting behind the keyboard.